If these things go live as is, the only viable ship to solo around in will be a RLML Cerberus.
Seriously. Increasing their range was the wrong idea.

Hey guys

Thanks for the feedback.

So far I'm noticing two major threads

wtf are you thinking these are insanely strong (especially in FW frig 1v1 type environments)

wtf why didn't you reduce the sig or increase the hp/speed to make them more survivable

This seems pretty okay I think. I agree that some of them will make really OP 1v1 ships, but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

I'll keep watching the discussion and will also pay really close attention to their use after release and adjust as needed.

Hopefully they're just really fun

No, he used the "Balance for solo is not the same as balance for small groups, and we're balancing for small groups" argument. Which is the same one they've always used.

A few ships are already like this. For one, the current sentinel...as well as the Dragoon and the Curse. It's pretty hard for a dedicated neuting ship not to be OP in 1v1.

I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.

My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.

If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.

It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.

EAFs only have a major warp speed advantage over cruiser hulls now...and the cruiser solution to the EAF problem is the same as it always was: dump a flight of lights on them and watch them explode.

Frigates warp at 6 AU/s. New EAFs (as with AFs and bombers) are 6.75. Destroyers 5.25 up from 3.

The large jump is between dessies and cruisers


With regards to drones: EAFs are really bad at dealing with drones. Also, any medium weapon that gets in range will kill an EAF in seconds (admittedly, the longer ranged EAFs will probably not be in range very often)

My stance is definitely not "it's okay if this destroys the meta because we can change it after", it's that I don't think it will mess up the meta but if it did somehow I would be here to fix it.

I talked with Fozzie a bit and we may be up for making some small changes to some of the range bonuses and maybe to their mass to make them a bit easier to catch.

Still going to wait a little longer before committing to any changes.

ps - this is a great way to start a post "Dear ******* christ on a stick." =D

Can you convince me that they are? The most popular Recon sees less airtime than a Stabber. I'm sure that won't sound sufficient but I'm not sure how it could be proven.

I feel like acknowledging this type of thing may not be smart but if it isn't obvious from my interaction here on the forums I can say it very straight forwardly - I would never intentionally dismiss the input of players, no matter how much I might disagree.

I can change Stabber to Cerberus and it's still true, and training time is similar.

I'm not saying this is a perfect way of identifying power, just saying that screaming recons are OP isn't either and I'm not sure how we're going to get anywhere.

What should they use instead? Gut instinct? Personal preferences? Come on man. Metrics are useful. Stop knee-jerking just because your playstyle is being threatened.

I am still in noob time of my pvp evolution but with about 40 solo kills I must say, if I will see these on scan, I will probably not fight, because this things can spoil my day no matter how hard I try ;)

Alright you win !

Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.

Thanks for the help

This was probably a mistake. The ships are flown less than titans, they need a significant buff: most of their strengths on paper turn out to not compensate for being a frigate with no real survivability.

I foresee many Crows with Hyena alts

This !

IMO people here just hate EWAR so much they prefer these EAF to stay in their current TQ state than risking to see them flying. Listening to them, they already are OP...